Immigration reform is taking center stage in Congress as the Senate begins hashing out HR4437, a House bill calling for harsh penalties for illegal immigrants and anyone who assists them. Senators' opinions on the controversial issue cover the spectrum from offering amnesty to building a wall along the U.S-Mexico border. Park City, which relies on a large transient workforce, many of whom are not American citizens, has a huge stake in the outcome. Where do you stand? Should Congress make it easier to get guest worker cards or does that jeopardize U.S. laborers? What should the penalty be for hiring undocumented immigrants? Can the U.S. afford to deport every undocumented immigrant currently in the country?
Please note, this is a forum for constructive suggestions toward resolving the conflict between the reality of Park City's ethnically diverse workforce and current immigration policy. Racist comments will be deleted.
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As an educator, where does that put me when I teach an child of an undocumented worker? I am here to educate all students assigned to me, legal or illegal, American or Mexican. I am here to teach all equally, assisting those that need a bit "extra" or TLC, and challenging others to understand that the "walls" some have put up for them need to come down-whether those walls are cultural or educational barriers that hamper success. At the end of the day, we are all people, and need to treat ALL with due respect. I applaud the "workers" who come and work hard to create a better life for their families, who set a positive example for their school age children, who believe in the "American Dream".
Our transient work force is necessary to the ski and lodging industries. We have people coming from all over the world to work, not just Mexico. Will others be restricted as well?
We cannot afford to deport every undocumented worker. However, I do believe if an illegal commits a crime that merits deporting, this should be done without hesitation.
Amnesty for all who are currently in the country, tighten our borders, set up a workers program with a track to citizenship.
We should offer illegal immigrants a different kind of amnesty. Give them one year to leave the country and we promise not to arrest them. Then when they get home they can apply legally like everyone else. Then we put up a 20 foot wall and enforce our borders and enforce our laws. Then Park City hotels, resorts and restaurants can attract American citizens and legal immigrants by paying them a lot more than the slave wages they pay now. On an inflation adjusted basis, all these jobs pay a fraction of what they paid 30 years ago. If they have to raise the price of a sandwich or pizza then so be it. It's not as though Swiss ski resorts are all out of business and Switzerland does not tolerate illegal immigrants at all. We can all adjust to higher wages.
Lest we forget. . . (or perhaps most of the west who have never seen or read):
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
From the Statue of Liberty
November 2, 1883
WE (WITH THE EXCEPTION OF A FEW)WERE ALL IMMIGRANTS AT ONE TIME.
We should be able to work out a cooperative agreement with the people that are already here!
WOW!
Send people back!? Build walls!?
Unless you are a native american you cannot possibly be serious!
without the help of the illegals that are willing to risk life and family to cross our boarders for a better life we would not be america! are you willing to cross a dangerous horrible dessert risking all including your life(It usually takes them 3-7 days without food or water to make it) are you up to the challenge to fight for a better life? would you be willing to do this for your famliy? think again before you make negative statements that you think are so self rightous, think about the reality of it all....are you up to the challenge-sorry to interrupt your manicure or tennis game- but lets get real!
As a member of Law Enforcement, I deal and meet with a lot of illegal immigrants. Harsher penalties for illegal immigrants and those who support them? We need to think of a better way. Many immigrants are leaving very poor countries to have a better life. Locking people up or threatening to do so isn't going to help either. I think some type of Amnesty would be more appropriate.
Building walls at our borders? Are you kidding me? Did you not hear of the underground tunnels people have built?
It is easy for some to just say send them away or lock them up, but these are PEOPLE we're speak ing about. I think some need to be a little more sensitive on this subject. If all of the illegal immigrants in any city in the U.S. were to just leave, it would be chaos. So think about that.
Please, it is a chaos of our own doing. Years of inaction on the immigration front have resulted in our country and this community relying upon illegals to work certain jobs that no one supposedly wants. Perhaps if the market had to react to a world without illegals such jobs would suddenly become attractive as wages and benefits increase. There is absolutely no reason at all, beyond our own pathetic self interest in seeing our own lives continue unabated by the supposedly tragic loss of the illegal workforce, for any person in the country here ILLEGALLY to remain. There are so many people from other countries who want to live in this country. Why should they be expected to follow the rules and apply for citizenship, when a whole group of others get a free pass by ducking across the border? Every last person here illegally should go back to where they came from and come back legally. If there is some sort of expanded work visa program, that's super, at least it's offical. How are people coming to this country supposed to respect our laws when their mere presence is a crime? The poster about the walls is right on the money...walls, military presence, expanded law enforcement, more money to INS (ICE), serious consequences for those that employ, aid or abet, the whole bit. We cannot defend this country if we can't secure our borders. While we can't zip lock it 100%, if the consequences for getting caught were greater than a free trip home, many more would think twice. Just because this country has a history of free and loose immigration doesn't mean that such practices should continue forever. Slavery was certainly an economic boon to the South, but that didn't mean that it should have continued. Illegal immigration certainly is a boon to Park City, but that doesn't mean it should stay.
well if you want to get technical on who should stay and go, why don't you and your family leave first since the Native Americans were here first.
Oh my, you are so right!
Since the Native Americans were here first, no one really has the authority to say who belongs. We should dismantle our entire border patrol and let everyone in. Government is nothing but an illusion.
I watched with sorrow this year the Sundance film DeNADIE. It highlighted the dangerous, expensive trek of Central Americans to the U.S. – a trek due to the promise of a better life. Travelers experienced rapes, killings, theft - all with a low chance of success into the U.S.
Yet we, smugly, claim that our "porous border" somehow helps these immigrants. We claim that our economy depends on them, yet we fail to take the direct blame for encouraging a system that causes many to undertake a fatal journey, and exploits the lucky few that successfully make the trek.
We need border control. Not primarily as a defense mechanism of the U.S., but as a way of stopping this hazardous journey and subsequent exploitation. We currently are like slavers on ante-bellum Virginia plantations, and we don’t see the cost of the human cargo that does not make it to our fields and restaurants. Yet, we claim our economy would fail without the ability to exploit those who are successful in their crossing. (this sounds like the Southerners prior to the Civil War – “but we’all Neehd this ‘cheap labor,’ or our plantations will fail.”)
We need the workers – no one disputes that. But we need them in a system that protects their rights and their dignity – from when they begin their journey with a known destination, to when they are on the payroll as legal workers – not suffering abuse and exploitation in an underground economy.
Those who have come illegally should be allowed to stay, but not a path to citizenship. Permanent residents only. Children born here are citizens and have in effect jumped the line compared to children of parents waiting to come here legally.
There seems to be confusion here between being against illegal immigration and being against immigration. Every time someone says something to enforce the laws or penalize those who break them, the criticisms fly about being anti-immigrant. This is just not true. It is against breaking the rules that all the rest of us play by. So, yes, I am the child of LEGAL immigrants who played by the rules, waited, put up with the bureaucracy and took a boat here. I am not anti immigrant at all. Also, there seem to be people who post messages with lots of questions in them. Just count the question marks. I suppose they think the anwers are obvious to them, but if they were to everyone else then we would all agree. I ask that people state their thoughts without using ambiguous rhetorical questions for which the answer is unclear. Thanks.
We don't have a problem with Canadian immigrants that I know of. . .ever wonder why? Perhaps because the Canadian economy is such that they don't feel a need to leave. Perhaps we could help Mexico improve their economy and their people would want to stay. Not a bad idea, eh?
Maybe "we" should help "their" economy? Gee, glad you thought of it. Wonder why that has never been thought of before. It's not like Maquilladora, NAFTA and a gazzillion other programs have been in place in different forms for the last 30 years. The problem with "their" economy is "their" corruption, socialism, misguided nationalism, kleptoprocism, etc. There is a reason Mexico is poor and other counties are not and it is not whether "we" need to help "them".
Time to look at the organizers:
http://www.internationalanswer.org/
A front group for the Workers World Party:
http://www.workers.org/
These are not pro American organizations. The Latinos who participate and have participated in these marches are dupes and are being used as pawns of larger organizations who are more concerned with ideology than in creating a safe and legal means for Illegal aliens to become citizens.
Don't let the organizers fool you, if you are going to participate, consider who you are supporting.
Just because we are against illegal aliens, doesn't mean we are against immigrants. I work at a company that is at least 1/2 latino work force. They get paid the same wages as everyone else in the company. But they claim 12 dependants on their tax forms. If they speak English and get pulled over they "no habla englas" and get off easy for having no valid driver's license, no insurance, no proper registration, etc. If they want to be treated fair then fair should apply all the way around.
This topic is so huge and yet so upsetting to people from all walks of life. We DO need to secure our borders, above ground & below. Any 'illegal' folks living in the U.S. need to go back and return through the legal and appropriate channels. By living here, in a way that is technically 'illegal' these people are not only taking away (countless benefits and resources that the legal American's need!) They will work for less $$ making anyone else (who IS legal) less appealing to a potential employer! It's also true that when an 'illegal' resident gets pulled over, no license/registration etc., you or I would go to jail or get a huge ticket. It just doesn't seem that the police are willing to deal with this in a 'hands on' way. If a person breaks the law, they get punished (ticket, jail etc.) I think INS should start gettin' busy and remove the illegal-people out of our country! We make & follow laws to ensure a safe and fair living environment for us and our children. How safe is it when guns are being drawn on US 40 and innocent people are getting shot? At 7-11 a small woman was brytally beaten during the late-shift, by an 'illegal' resident. They still have not found & arrested that man. The victim, is still suffering major injuries and has been traumatized significantly. Yet, the people of PC want to welcome this type pf community here, to be politically-correct? Maybe, for once the 'legal' people should stand up for their rights before everything goes to hell and so does the future and every day life we have all enjoyed thus far. It seems to be getting VERY CROWDED in New York, New Jersey, Utah and many other places. It also appears that many of the crimes reported in the police-blotters list more latino names than any other. They are bringing drugs and drug-behavior into the USA!? How could we have let this happen? My final comment, if you come to live in the U.S.A., WE SPEAK ENGLISH! IF YOU DON'T WANT TO JOIN-US AND COMMUNICATE HERE, THEN DON'T BOTHER, GO LIVE SOMEWHERE ELSE! Everyone else learns it, except Latino's...why? I think they believe that if they are stubborn long enough that the USA will all decide to learn Spanish, to make it easier. I WILL NOT. I would learn it if I was going to Spain (anywhere that language applies) or moving somewhere that Spanish is the main language! I would bother to make that effort. Thousands of Latino parents do not take the time, and in fact refuse to learn the language, for whatever reason. I wouls love to know why, but this problem has existed since the 1980's and will go on, if we let it! Follow the laws, you want to live here, get LEGAL or get OUT!
I whole hearly agree, speak english!!! I would not move to Mexico and expect them to learn english and print everything in english. I am so sick of them saying "habla espanol" NO WE ARE IN AMERICA!!! MY grandparents came here from Germany and learned english within a year, why do we let them push us around?!
As an educator, parent, and American citizen, I am aware that alien-immigrants are receiving much in return for the "struggle" they face by leaving Mexico. Children are receiving a free, quality education here in Park City. They are receiving free services left and right, including welfare, medical/dental care, etc. I am paying $400.00 per month for my family of 3 people. When I took my son to the ER for x-rays I was charged $100.00. However, there was a waiting room full of people who were to be charged zero because I had already paid for their care! What is wrong with this picture? I agree we need to assist Mexicans in becoming better educated and self-sufficient. We should help them do this because it is the right thing to do and because it will serve Mexico and the U.S. We share a very large border, both countries should have a vested interest in each other. However, leaving the flood gates open without any sense of rhyme, reason, or plan is not an answer.
Well I don't have a problem with immigrants and I don't think that we should build a wall I think that we should let them come here to America. They do have to pay for a lot of things too not only us and they do have to pay for their medical problems. But I think it would be a better idea to let them be here and if they don't have a green card it would be better if we can at least support them so they can get a green card.
To those who feel the "Native Americans" are the only legitimate occupants of our country, I pose a single question. Who do you think they took the land from? Each tribe that is currently in the United States immigrated to this continent, took the land by force from the previous occupants and fought to maintain what they felt was theirs.
Similarly, the Mexicans, Spaniards, French, Germans, Dutch, Portugese, Italians and British fought for this land in a variety of wars dating back more than 500 years. We are the ancestors of all those groups plus many, many more. Even though it is politically unpopular to state it, we "Americans" expelled the Europeans, quelled the native population and established quite possibly the most fundamentally fair politcal system in existence.
That system is now being abused by both well meaning persons with a strong sense of social conscience, business profiteers and illegal immigrants. If not addressed in a logical and far reaching manner, the illeagl immigration we are experienceing now will lead to tragic consequences for all of us.
Economically speaking, illegal immigrants create a false bottom to our economy that in the long run works like extra low interest rates. It's great at first, but eventually results in an overheated economy that is not sustainable. It provides fantastic profits to the rich while it abuses those persons on the lowest rungs of the workforce. It creates jobs that would never have been there in the first place and sustains jobs that should be replaced with technological advances. The old argument that illegals fill jobs Americans won't do is irrelevant. If those jobs cant be filled, the economy wil adjust and find a solution. Any person with a solid understaniding of basic economics will tell you the same thing. By allowing illegals to flood our economy with cheap labor, you abuse them and retard economic growth and development. They aren't doing us, or themselves, a favor by coming here illegally to pick lettuce, hammer nails, mow lawns or scrub dishes. Illegals arent coming to America because they love apple pie, they come here so they can earn money to send home. Once that capital is sent to Michoacan, Sinaloa or Oaxaca, it is no longer available to the US economy for sustained growth or taxation.
We Americans share a common history, culture, religious background, work ethic etc. That common bond involves not only maintaining your sense of individualism, but a real responsibilty to the community by learning the language and adhereance to the laws of the place you are living. That is not asking too much when you consider the benefits bestowed upon those who join us in the workplace, our schools and places of worship. Additionaly, there is no excuse for illegal immigration. Everyone else has to file the appropriate paperwork, complete a background check and develop the knowledge required for citizenship. No one is above the law or beneath it in our system.
There is a very simple answer to all of this. Physically secure the border and eliminate the economic incentive to come into the US. this can be accomplished by vigorously prosecuting businesses that employ illegal labor. A workable system for employers to check the residential status of job applicants would provide employers a means to ensure they are not inadvertantly hiring illegal labor.
For those who are in the US illegally now, provide a period of 1 year to register as an illegal entrant. Anyone that fails to register should be expelled. Those which have registered can apply for legal status the same as anyone else wishing to enter the US. If they fail the requirements or are convicted of any crimes, they are deported. No amnesty and no draconian measures that separate families and foster hatred. If they want to stay in the US, they have to earn it like everybody else.
To those who feel the "Native Americans" are the only legitimate occupants of our country, I pose a single question. Who do you think they took the land from? Each tribe that is currently in the United States immigrated to this continent, took the land by force from the previous occupants and fought to maintain what they felt was theirs.
Similarly, the Mexicans, Spaniards, French, Germans, Dutch, Portugese, Italians and British fought for this land in a variety of wars dating back more than 500 years. We are the ancestors of all those groups plus many, many more. Even though it is politically unpopular to state it, we "Americans" expelled the Europeans, quelled the native population and established quite possibly the most fundamentally fair politcal system in existence.
That system is now being abused by both well meaning persons with a strong sense of social conscience, business profiteers and illegal immigrants. If not addressed in a logical and far reaching manner, the illeagl immigration we are experienceing now will lead to tragic consequences for all of us.
Economically speaking, illegal immigrants create a false bottom to our economy that in the long run works like extra low interest rates. It's great at first, but eventually results in an overheated economy that is not sustainable. It provides fantastic profits to the rich while it abuses those persons on the lowest rungs of the workforce. It creates jobs that would never have been there in the first place and sustains jobs that should be replaced with technological advances. The old argument that illegals fill jobs Americans won't do is irrelevant. If those jobs cant be filled, the economy wil adjust and find a solution. Any person with a solid understaniding of basic economics will tell you the same thing. By allowing illegals to flood our economy with cheap labor, you abuse them and retard economic growth and development. They aren't doing us, or themselves, a favor by coming here illegally to pick lettuce, hammer nails, mow lawns or scrub dishes. Illegals arent coming to America because they love apple pie, they come here so they can earn money to send home. Once that capital is sent to Michoacan, Sinaloa or Oaxaca, it is no longer available to the US economy for sustained growth or taxation.
We Americans share a common history, culture, religious background, work ethic etc. That common bond involves not only maintaining your sense of individualism, but a real responsibilty to the community by learning the language and adhereance to the laws of the place you are living. That is not asking too much when you consider the benefits bestowed upon those who join us in the workplace, our schools and places of worship. Additionaly, there is no excuse for illegal immigration. Everyone else has to file the appropriate paperwork, complete a background check and develop the knowledge required for citizenship. No one is above the law or beneath it in our system.
There is a very simple answer to all of this. Physically secure the border and eliminate the economic incentive to come into the US. this can be accomplished by vigorously prosecuting businesses that employ illegal labor. A workable system for employers to check the residential status of job applicants would provide employers a means to ensure they are not inadvertantly hiring illegal labor.
For those who are in the US illegally now, provide a period of 1 year to register as an illegal entrant. Anyone that fails to register should be expelled. Those which have registered can apply for legal status the same as anyone else wishing to enter the US. If they fail the requirements or are convicted of any crimes, they are deported. No amnesty and no draconian measures that separate families and foster hatred. If they want to stay in the US, they have to earn it like everybody else.
To those who feel the "Native Americans" are the only legitimate occupants of our country, I pose a single question. Who do you think they took the land from? Each tribe that is currently in the United States immigrated to this continent, took the land by force from the previous occupants and fought to maintain what they felt was theirs.
Similarly, the Mexicans, Spaniards, French, Germans, Dutch, Portugese, Italians and British fought for this land in a variety of wars dating back more than 500 years. We are the ancestors of all those groups plus many, many more. Even though it is politically unpopular to state it, we "Americans" expelled the Europeans, quelled the native population and established quite possibly the most fundamentally fair politcal system in existence.
That system is now being abused by both well meaning persons with a strong sense of social conscience, business profiteers and illegal immigrants. If not addressed in a logical and far reaching manner, the illeagl immigration we are experienceing now will lead to tragic consequences for all of us.
Economically speaking, illegal immigrants create a false bottom to our economy that in the long run works like extra low interest rates. It's great at first, but eventually results in an overheated economy that is not sustainable. It provides fantastic profits to the rich while it abuses those persons on the lowest rungs of the workforce. It creates jobs that would never have been there in the first place and sustains jobs that should be replaced with technological advances. The old argument that illegals fill jobs Americans won't do is irrelevant. If those jobs cant be filled, the economy wil adjust and find a solution. Any person with a solid understaniding of basic economics will tell you the same thing. By allowing illegals to flood our economy with cheap labor, you abuse them and retard economic growth and development. They aren't doing us, or themselves, a favor by coming here illegally to pick lettuce, hammer nails, mow lawns or scrub dishes. Illegals arent coming to America because they love apple pie, they come here so they can earn money to send home. Once that capital is sent to Michoacan, Sinaloa or Oaxaca, it is no longer available to the US economy for sustained growth or taxation.
We Americans share a common history, culture, religious background, work ethic etc. That common bond involves not only maintaining your sense of individualism, but a real responsibilty to the community by learning the language and adhereance to the laws of the place you are living. That is not asking too much when you consider the benefits bestowed upon those who join us in the workplace, our schools and places of worship. Additionaly, there is no excuse for illegal immigration. Everyone else has to file the appropriate paperwork, complete a background check and develop the knowledge required for citizenship. No one is above the law or beneath it in our system.
There is a very simple answer to all of this. Physically secure the border and eliminate the economic incentive to come into the US. this can be accomplished by vigorously prosecuting businesses that employ illegal labor. Aditionally, we need a workable system for employers to check the residential status of job applicants would provide employers a means to ensure they are not inadvertantly hiring illegal labor.
For those who are in the US illegally now, provide a period of 1 year to register as an illegal entrant. Anyone that fails to register should be expelled. Those which have registered can apply for legal status the same as anyone else wishing to enter the US. If they fail the requirements or are convicted of any crimes, they are deported. No amnesty and no draconian measures that separate families and foster hatred. If they want to stay in the US, they have to earn it like everybody else.
Let's keep in mind that California as well as other states was part of Mexico. I am a Mexican-American whose parents migrated here from Mexico to reach the "American Dream". What a dream? You get here work your ass off for your future ones and your told you're not wanted here. That sounds like a nightmare to me, don't you think? Anyone deserves to have the right to choose where he or she wants to live and feels most comfortable.
You ingrate.
Please feel free to return to Mexico and live out the "Mexican Dream".
Lets also remember that Mexico lost that land to the US in the Mexican-American War, but was compensated (monetarily and through treaty) for the property anyway. Plus, Mexico took the land from the Spaniards, who took it from the natives, who fought for a couple of millenia amongst themselves to see who would control it. In summary, get over losing the territory and be a good citizen instead of a whining punk looking for handouts.
Thr problem with immigration reform is that is extends far beyond just boarder control. If there is to be immigration reform, there must also be reform to almost every social and welfare program. There must be changes to the educational system as discussed above in the first comment. I don't see where it ends.
But I do stand stongly for reform. Rather than not enforcing the rules we have now, we need to change them to laws we can enforce. We also need to keep to the tradition of being an "open doors" country. But in doing so, we need to open the front door wider, while shutting the back door completely. Immigrants from any country seeking to better their life, as well as the lives of their families and those around them, should not only be able to come to America, but should be able to stay as long as they are doing so. It's those who come "for a better life" and abuse the system and the freedom America provides that should be allowed in by legal means, and then promptley sent back to be unproductive in their own country.
I know several Park City residents who should not be here but have no problem with any authorities, and I know others who have been constantly "shipped home" who have worked hard to help build a better community, all because they came in the front door instead of walking across a desert, swimming across a river and then jumping a fence.
Let them in. Let them prove their worth. And then either let them stay or send them back depending on their goals and the level of character they display. BUt if we start, we have to go all the way and fix the whole system. The president who is finally brave enough to do it probably won't get reelected, but will save the country from itself.
Don't give amnesty, but give delayed prosecution. Tell all illegal’s they have a certain time period to "get in the system" or be deported on the spot when found. Hold employers accountable for hiring undocumented workers. "We" as a country want the tax money they are not paying. Yes they are paying taxes but very little, it's very easy to evade when you don't exist.
Now strengthen borders and provide and true worker program. There are plenty of jobs in this country to go around, just pick up any classified and you will see. It's true they are willing to do jobs that most of us are too proud or too lazy to do.
The lower the unemployment is the better our economy will be. So long as they are documented and paying taxes. They would not be swimming rivers and risking their lives to get here if:
1. We welcome them with out prejudice.
2. Actively take steps to strengthen their economies by providing education and exert political pressure on their country leaders.
The better educated your people are the less corruption and exploitation you will see. They would not be migrating here if life was better in their own county.
TREAT THE PROBLEM AND NOT THE SYMPTOM.
Let's not be naive about the whole issue about the native indians being the only legitimate occupants of our country. The whole argument about Americans having earned their ownership through years of waring and conquest as the natives did is ridiculous. Native people shurely fought over this land as we did but they share a common racial lineage that's tied to this continent for at least 10,000 years! Fighting for this land for a mere 500 years does not legitimize our ownership. And since Mexicans share the same racial lineage as native north american indians, we will never be as fundimentally deserving of the rights to this land as they are. And if we are a little aware of history and have the valor to be honest enough, anyone can plainly see that we did steal much of what is now the United States from Mexico irregardless of how we try or tried to justify it. Being of French ancestry, It makes me cringe when I see white Americans saying that Mexicans are entering "our" country illegaly. How can anyone with any sense of reality and morality make such arguments about mestiso people (Mexican) who's ancestors lived throught this continent for thousands of years before us? In all sincerity, this is as much our land as Africa is to whites there. Sure we have control, have become the majority, but is this land really ours? So let's at least share what's not ours! :)
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