Monday, March 13, 2006
So many jobs, so few places to live
When Park City's resorts are going full tilt, as they have been this winter, many local businesses find themselves short-staffed due, in part, to the area's chronic lack of affordable housing. Everyone seems to agree that in order to establish a bigger workforce we need to build some form of employee housing -- but coming to a consensus on who should build it is tough. What do you think? Should the city and county subsidize affordable housing projects? Should developers be required to provide units as part of their projects? Or do you think it should be left to the free market? Resorts towns across the country are facing the same dilemma so any new ideas are greatly appreciated.
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73 comments:
Bottom line - everyone is responsible - the resorts, the developers, the government. They each should be taking responsibilty. Resorts in PC need to wake up and buy some land in Kamas to build emplyee housing. I don't care which resort "has more housing" then the others - there is not enough. Developers need to include an accomodation for empoyee housing, even if it is a financial contribution to an offsite local - like Kamas. Finally government should be absolutely embarassed that they have not taken a stronger role in forcing developers to accomodate employee housing needs after the Olympics when it became very obviouse that there was a real problem. We are a community and need to act like one. If we don't recognize that soon then the quality of all good, services, and experiences in PC are going to go down the tubes!
Commute to Park City. I'll pay a couple bucks extra in the stores to offset any increased wages necessary to encourage the commuting of rank-and-file employees...rather have that than affordable housing that ruins hard-earned equity in our not-so-affordable housing
REALITY CHECK: There is no land available for employee housing that's going to "ruin hard-earned equity". The best anyone could do would be to buy land out of town and set up a bus rout. But, the bigger issue is if you truly think a thoughtfully designed structure housing the people who serve you your latte every morning or teach your kid how to "make a pizza" are going to ruin home prices, then maybe you should move to Aspen. I hear they're really good at keeping all the grubby working stiffs hidden. You can enjoy your rediculous gains in real estate and never ever ever have to be bothered with social responsibility.
Dear Anonymous: No, better yet, you should probably move - maybe to some dive metropolis. You are likely one of those unfortunate people that loves to pat him/herself on the back for all the so-called "good" I'm sure you think you do - goodie for you. Reality check for you: Bottom line, people have a right to expect that their hard-earned equity, lifestyle and sacrifices will not be affected adversely because of a couple "feel-gooders" that live in never-neverland. If the inference is that I am a spoiled silver-spooner that benefited from some form of nepotism, you would be wrong. I worked and continue to work hard to live the lifestyle I live and damn well expect that my property values go up and up and up and I have absolutely no shame whatsoever in stating that.
Children, children, your bickering is strangling our golden egg-laying goose.
Fu^&*$% think Damnnit!
Compassion?
It seems to me by the nature of your conversations, that many of you Parkites believe that you are better than us 'the J-1 workers'. You need to understand that we spend thousands of dollars to come here and we are not here because we need your money or jobs. You need us to be here or your seasonal based economy would collapse. We are here for the experience, to better our English, and above all to have fun. Affordability is not the main issue as most of come from families that are as wealthy or wealthier than the average person in Park City. Instead, all we want are places to live where we can access the places of work, grocery stores and night clubs. If there is to be employee housing, it must be in Park City as most of us would never in a million years live in Heber or Kamas as we are acustomed to a higher level of amenities than exist there. For you that are offended by us 'starnge people' living close to you, walking on your streets, and injecting thousands of dollars into your local economy - GET OUT OF YOUR LITTLE NARROW-MINDED BUBBLE and begin to enjoy the experience of having cultured people living amongst you. You could learn a lot from us about living life and not stressing so much. To the rest of you who have been so nice and warm to us - Thank you, we recognize your kindness.
The developers and builders that have built here in Park City are making a very good living building houses that cost less than a third of their selling prices. It would be nice if they could get together and build housing for the "regular joe" too. I work and live here in Park City, I've been here since 1989 and have watched this town grow. There is land available, but it is all being developed as exclusive communities for million dollar plus homes. Businesses are having a hard time finding good employees because they have to hire from outside the city, and then the have to hope that their employee will be able to get to work every day. It's great that Park City has grown into this wonderful place for the rich to play, but face it, most of the homeowners here are not going to bag your groceries for you 5-6 days a week. We need to give our workers a nice place to live and an opportunity to enjoy the good the Park City has to offer. I don't think we need more "low income" housing like the apartment complexes we already have here. A place like Bear Hollow would have been a great place to allow our general population of workers to be able to afford to live. But instead, even those condo-like houses with no yard are priced outside of the regular worker's affordability. What about Glenwild? Another opportunity that was used to build for those that aren't struggling to provide for their families. If you talk to many of our workers, the ones that struggle to live in this nice community do so by having more than one job.
'cultured people' -- HA! Seasonal worker, what's your point?
Kamas rocks!
I blame all the greedy developers for developing the HELL out of this town and increasing the rent every year. I've lived here for 5 years and would like to call this town home for the next 20. BUT...with the way real estate is going I'll never be able to afford it even after I move on from a job at the resorts. Without us, the full time and the seasonal resort employees, this town would crumble. Let's not make this into the next Aspen or Vail where the people that work here can't live here. We do need to have some kind of employee housing that's reasonable and that's convenient to get to. All three resorts need to put their heads together and fix it. Soon.
I hate to break this to you (um, no I don't) but seasonal work in Park City ain't skilled labor. All you resort workers gotta wise up and realize you're not indispensable. I caution you to hop off your high horses because there will always be people willing to drive from Heber, SLC and Coalville to fill these 'key' 'high level' lift-operating, snowplowing and bread bowl-making positions. 'Cultured' people from South America and Aussie are fine but by no means necessary.
Not everyone in Park City is a silverspooner/trustafarian. Some people actually worked for what they have and much of it didn't involve bong hits in bathrooms at The Canyons.
Don't want to respect property rights? Don't want to adhere to a free market? Want to damage other people's rights so the lazy among us can have a leg up? Move to Cuba -- I hear there is lots of affordable housing there. Freedom, however, is in short supply.
Can't afford to live in Park City -- tough! Get educated, make more money or find somewhere else to live. That's what most people do.
Thanks.
p.s. those slopes better be groomed when I get there!
The price of housing has to do with supply and demand. The left wing activists like Dana Williams who push for low-density, no development, slow development, green belt buffer areas, etc. only exacerbate the problem by restricting supply. "Forcing" developers to provide low income housing only denies the real source of the problem.
Also on the topic of supply and demand, wages in Park City are kept artificially low due to the supply of cheap labor from foreign workers. If all of the foreign workers in Park City, legal and otherwise, were removed, all those $8/hour jobs would be $15/hour. If the resorts and other businesses think they can't afford that then they are lying. If you inflation adjust the wages paid in 1970 for the same jobs to today's wages you would be pretty close to $15.
The previous blogger's arguments about wages are right on point.
The resorts cannot be trusted!
But I hear Katie Eldridge got a new job.
late
So it seems that there are two very different points in this blog. One of the hourly worker and one of the affluent individual. It is easy to throw insults at each other by calling one the trustafarian and the other bong smokers, but it dosnt really solve anyting. Just a quick note, I wonder if you would each make the same point of eachother if you knew them.
Anyway, it is sad that people who work in the infrastructure of a society can not afford to live in the coomunity that they are so important to. With the resorts being the major employeers in the area and major corporation refusing to move to Park City the work force is really stuck. I dont know how the leading individuals at the resorts can look in the mirror knowing that the wage scales they set essential keep thier workers in poverty while they make enormous wages for their priveldge network contacts. The idea that workers will come from SLC and other areas is slowly drying up. with the numerous corporations moving into the SLC valley and the cost of gas, etc many SLC workers are boycoting Park City. This is being felt at Deer Valley who has had an incredibly hard time this year filling positions as well as many of the hotels, etc.
Lets forget about the seasonal resort workers for a moment and think about the teachers, nurses, EMT, firemen, cops, bus drivers, electricians, stonemasons, chefs, bartenders and any of the 100's of other "skilled" employees that cant afford the area either. With an adverage price home in PArk ICty north of 500 thousand, these employees are not able to buy here either.
Dont even get me started on the developers. What a joke. I feel bad for the sweeny family. I completely understand how their proposed development will impact old town, but in consideration of all the donations, land and other things that they have given to Park City over the course of close to 100 years, it is a shame that they are getting such a hard time. It seems Park City will pass every highend development brought to the table, but not this. Most of these developers will be gone in a few years once they have made their money and have moved onto the next community to exploit.
So on a personal note, the person writting from the obviously affluent position, go back to NYC, LA or wherever else you came from and live your self important, self centered life. ps, bring what ever stuck up kids and trophy wife with you or your boyfriend for that matter.
The previous blogger is obviously cursed with the dreaded 'feel-gooder' gene. But I do agree with your points about Sweeney -- I can't recall witnessing a more disgusting display of NIMBYism.
And Deer Valley! My God, Bill Wheaton must have sold his soul to Satan because I swear the devil's minnions are running that joint.
Didn't DV sell a bunch of employee housing for condo development just before bussing in loads of foreign workers? F--in' media needs to get on this one.
Well, a lot of ugly feelings here. Certain facts cannot be ignored:
1. In order to maintain a resort oriented and service based economy, workers with moderate pay are required.
2. Any community requires police officer, EMTs, teachers, and the like and their wage scale is still limited.
3. All of the so called service workers need a place to live and that place ideally should be close to where they work.
4. Park City and Summit County do not have adequate housing for the service workers.
Given these facts, one would expect that the residents would like to see affordable housing. A range of housing options provides diversity and depth to a community and truly is unlikely to reduce equity or values in the long term. Don't the residents want their police officers and teachers to be a part of the community?
Who is responsible? The primary block to affordable housing is the local government. The structure of the zoning regulations makes the construction of affordable housing (or even moderate cost housing) impossible. To build affordable housing, the builder/developer/owner must be able to build multiple units per acre in order to spread the cost of the land, permit approval, water, sever, streets and the like over a number of units. One unit per 20 acre densities renders affordable housing completely impossible.
Unfortunately, unless the public makes clear their desire to solve this problem, no action will be taken and the problem will only become worse.
I think an experienced chef, a certified ski or snowboard instructor, and an experienced cat driver are all "skilled" labor.
The resorts are the ones who need the vast majorty of people. Therefor they should provide the most housing. If not by virtue of a lagal requirement, then becuase it's common sence.
To the comment about DV selling an existing employee housing site for condos, I'm not so sure this is accurate. They do claim to have more employee housing space then any other resort. But, on a percentage basis I would guess that their buisiness model requires more staff then the other resorts. I woul like to see a statement from the DV Gen. Mgr. about what percentage of employees they are able to house.
To the "seasonal worker" poster: You need a little atitude adjustment. But, that being said I hope you had a great season!
Bottom line: ski more powder and let your elected representatives know how you feel. Oh, and vote!
Cheers!
MAYBE THE "UNSKILLED" COMMENTATOR WOULD LIKE TO SEE HOW UNSKILLED THE SKI PATROLLER WHO STARTS AT $8.50/HOUR IS WHEN YOU ARE LYING IN THE WOODS WITH A BROKEN FEMUR. OR FEEL FREE TO STAND AT THE BOTTOM OF AN AVALANCHE SLIDE PATH WHILE WE UNSKILLFULLY DEPLOY EXPLOSIVES TO MAKE YOUR GROOMER SAFE! MONEY AND REAL ESTATE ARE NOT SOLE INDICATORS OF "SKILL". A LIFE SPENT DEVOTED TO SUCH PURSUITS GIVES A WHIFF OF "QUIET DESPERATION". ENJOY YOUR NEXT SKI RUN!
To the self-proclaimed "skilled" ski patroller who blogged last -- GET OVER YOURSELF!
Dude, ski patrolling -- give me a break. You all are glorified mountain hosts.
No offense all you mountain hosts.
It seems inevitable that folks making $8.50/hour will need to move out of town...Jackson Hole buses their McDonalds employees from the next town south.
Aspen here we come!
Commenting on what "seasonal worker said"...well, if you are wealthy or wealthier than the average Parkite then you should just buy a home here (or have your "wealthy" foreign parents buy it) and not complain about the need for low-cost housing. Or, what, maybe you're full of it ?
Dear "feel-gooder": I don't give a "you-know-what" about depth or diversity of community, I care about maintaining and increasing PC property values PERIOD! - Hey, at least I admit it. I want homes that currently go for 500G to go to 1 mill. ASAP while homes in SLC stay right where they belong - much lower.
To all you Berkeley freak-a-zoids, get lost! To all you limosuine liberals, get lost! You say, oh no, we better start catering to basically day-laborers or our Resorts will crumble and then you proceed to say just look at Aspen...last I checked, Aspen ski resort still exists and thrives and the property is worth more than it is here in Park City - doesn't seem to bad to me, although it would be nice to permanetly curb development unless it is super low-density, high-end.
"although it would be nice to permanetly curb development unless it is super low-density, high-end."... You are the one who sounds like a Berkeley freak-a-zoid. The fact that you can't see that proves that you are.
Thank You "Bottom line", Boys and girls... if you have a gripe, FIRST, work hard, be responsible, stay informed, cast your vote. For those highly educated and hard working neighbors who seem to think they are not replaceable...you are mortal and will be replaced in the years ahead...the world will go on with out skipping a beat at your absence.
Thanks to all you full and part-time resort / community skilled labor!! I own and am partners in 3 local corporations and know firt hand how some highly educated hard working elite easily overlook the years of education and experience plumbers, electricians, EMT,s, equipment operators, police, firefighters etc. need to perform their job. (Many have Univ. degrees) I have not stopped being irritated by the old college saying, " those that can't...teach" ( The largest group dedicated graduates I remember at University were those about start their teaching careers)Many,( not all ),hard working elites are the first to hand you a big bill for their advise on the phone and the first to complain when they see the cost of a bill for some service work at their home. Im glad these special people are not in the snowplow, cooking my meal, or reparing my toilet! My family and I likely would be sick from the food with no toilet working to use and no groomed place for my kids to ski. (due to their lack of knowledge and skill)
Sadly too many US citizens find it easy under estimate and disrespect others skills and hard work. Money earned or a homes square footage is not a real measure of ones personal skill or worth as a human being!! I would advance the idea that the better measure of an individual man or woman is how much their life has helped to improve or benifit the quality of life for family and the community around them!!
You've got to be kidding.
I love it when the workers come into town from Brazil, Argentina, South Africa, wherever.
The women are lovely and the men work hard and are very polite. Bus most of all, the women really are attractive. A community can never have too many attractive women, especially from South America.
Keep them coming, don't make them go to Kamas.
To the few that state the following:
"I want homes that currently go for 500G to go to 1 mill."
"...and damn well expect that my property values go up and up and up and I have absolutely no shame whatsoever in stating that."
You do realize it's just a paper gain don't you? What are you going to do? Sell and buy somewhere else cheaper? Downsize to a smaller house in the same area? Pull out equity for that Winnebago you can't afford? Who's going to buy/finance that overpriced/oversized home? Boomers are already selling their big homes. Demand for your house is going to go down, not up. Banks are already tightening their lending policies. Besides, if you were able to make money on that house, where will you be able to live? Other 'nice' comminuties are appreciating just as fast and you'll have to pay just as much there as well. It's Housing inflation and it is just paper gains. You aren't building wealth. Other places are gaining the same and we all pay more for houses.
It also sounds to me as if both of you are relying on real estate as your primary investment. Look out. This is a very foolish strategy, and you likely will get burned when the bubble bursts.
It's as simple as supply and demand. If you demand people work in your community to serve you, then you need to supply them with the means to do so. Otherwise, figure out something else. Teach your own children how to ski, buy and make your own coffee, cook your own dinners.... wait, then who will do that for the tourists that come here and spend tons of money every year to help make our wonderful lives here possible? The resorts, businesses, and government all need to work together to provide/subsidize housing. Unfortunately, we all live in reality and sometimes we have to make comprimises to get the things we all need and want. We are all part of this community, even the rank-and-file employees, and should be treated as such with the appropriate amount of representation and respect.
Park City was a great place, but without staff to keep it running, it will run into the ground. In the US, wages are 2nd world. Sorry, but they are. Many foreign workers come for the experience, and subsidise the trip with money from home.
We aren't all Mexicans. Most of us aren't Mexicans. We don't want to live here. We just want to be here for a bit before returning home.
If Park City can't resolve the housing problem, it will suffer, make no mistake. this has been the first season where this has hit home, and it will continue to get worse unless people take some responsibility for the situation and take some action.
I've paid more than 2/3rds of my pay in rent this season. That's just stupid. I like Park City, but hey, the US is a big place and there is plenty of places to do what I do without working for the landlord for 2.5 weeks of every month. Wise up, people. Don't killl the goose that laid the golden egg.
Name one. You're just wrong. Park City is cheap compared to most US destinations so maybe you're the one who needs to wise up. Next year, STAY HOME and let Parkites decide if they need so many foreign workers to survive. Not Satan's servants, who manage the local resorts, becasue they lie!
At least that landlord was able to gank you why you were here -- not only are you wrong but you sound stoopid!
Oh well, it's probably just your mommy and daddy's money anyway
God bless Amerika
"Not Satan's servants, who manage the local resorts, becasue they lie!"
Y'all best be moving back to Mississippi now.
To the previous blogger,
There are many cheaper places to live - jackson hole, targee, stowe, mad river glen, tahoe, SLC, breckenridge, boulder, etc...you need to get your facts straight...and the majority of these provide housing to workers
Also, the majority of Parkite kids have no interest in working for the resorts or anywhere else for that matter. if every child of a parkite actually got a job, there would still be thousands of positions to fill. yes thousands. the reason foriegn workers are in park city is beacause they will work for less than your fine americans. it is that simple.
I agree with the other blogger about owning 3 corps in town. I too own a business here and the hardest thing to do is to get these fine parkite kids to show up on time and actually do the job. yes this is a stero type, but it is one that i have experienced and have heard a thousand times.
look it is obvious that you have alot of money and could care less about anyone or thing else. good for you. there is an old quote " just because you can dosnt mean you should" try thinking about that the next time you build a 5000 sq ft house for 3 people or for people who come 3 weeks a year. also the greatness of a scoiety is not measured in material wealth but how it takes care of its people.
you are obviously rich in money and poor in character. please add your name so that when you do get hurt in the back country or on the slope, many of us will then know who to pass by. We wouldnt want you to sue us for helping you...
"We aren't all Mexicans."
Did someone really just say that? Shows a lot about attitude and entitlement. Your argument about fair treatment was completely lost with this one statement. Spoiled brats.
We are all Mexicans now.
God bless our Latino brothers and sisters, they make Park City a better place.
I understand this is an issue people are wound up about. But, I think we are loosing the point by getting side tracked with personal attacks.
Please answer the these questions:
1) Should special houseing for seasonal emplyees be built in Park City?
2) If yes, who should pay the bill for the construction?
Special housing is already being built. It may not be at the pace that some may like but you can not say that Park City is not doing anything to address the problem. That is simplt not true.
Who should pay? The current system is get developers to put aside a certain percentage of their project to affordable housing. Builders often complain bitterly (it affects their profits) and often ask for alternatives in the form of settting aside open space or lowering density. It's not perfect, but look at other resort towns and you will see a much more progressive approach here.
Reality is, that no amount of forced affordable housing will meet demand. There will always be less available than needed. Since Park City is considered relatively cheap to live in, there still are more workers than jobs. We get so many people poping into town at the beginning of the tourist season that all the open jobs are immediately filled.
'Why don't our parents just buy us houses if we are wealthy'??? That's a very stupid thing to say to people who are living in your town for 4 months at a time. Obviously it does not make economic sense.
I mentioned that many of us are wealthy because this comes as a surprise to many locals who seem to have the impression that we are here because we need American money or something. This naturally makes people suspicious. I think it is helpful for people to know more about us - including the fact that we pay multiple thousands of dollars to come here, to experience living here in Park City, in another country, rather than just to send money home. It's always best for people to have more information, especially when it seems that your town is considering policy solutions to a housing problem that directly relates to the seasonal workers from abroad.
If you are seriously questioning our social status, you are welcome to come visit our homes in various neighbourhoods of Rio or Buenos Aries my friend.
Back to the issue: it is unfortunate that places are so few and rents are so high here. Various Colorado towns have sufficient residences for their workers - this is obviously lacking in Park City and for the good of the town, I think it is needed.
Despite the housing issues, this has been a wonderful experience! Thank you to the people of Park City!!! Ciao.
Addressinbg the special housing already being built. Look at the bottom of Deer Valley, on the road to snowpark. the condos on the left are for lower income, they have taken 2 years to build. While some other high end homes and hotels have begun and finished in that time.
Also, all the jobs are not being filled in the begining of the season or during the seaon for that matter. Ask Deer Valley, PCMR, Steins, park hotel, Canyons, etc...they all suffered form staff shortages this year and their service suffered...
Also, where are you getting that Park CIty is realitivly cheap to live in? Have you checked out gas prices, most expensive in UT. How about housing, by far the most expensive in UT. Resturants, out of this world. Lift tickets, one of the most expensive in the country. Where ever you are buying, living, eating, skiing and living in Park City, please tell me, I will be right there with you. But since I live in the reality of PArk City, it is right on par with NYC, LA, San Fran and everyother expensive place in the country. If you make 100+ a year than Park City is cheap, for the rest of us, it is really expensive. Oh, if you do make 100+ a year you dont do it in PC. Unless you are a realtor.
As expensive as NY, LA & SF? Don't make me laugh! You aren't helping your argument by stating flat out falsehoods. PC is a bargin compared to those places.
Actually a I have lived in NYC and San Fran, the costs are not that far apart. A little less in housing and a lot more in food. It also has to do with where you lived in those cities. How about you? Have you lived there?
For sale on PArk CIty on the top of main street right now is a little green house on the left hand side of the street. It cant be more than 800 sq ft and it is going for 750,000. Dosnt sound like San Fran? I think that you need to check your facts before you accuse me of falsehood!
I'm getting a headache.
To the bubble burster: I am not relying on the housing market to go up as a retirement plan, but it sure is nice to know that because of the disproportionate property appreciation in Park City, I could (at least at the moment) go elsewhere in Utah (for example, some upper-end areas of the SLC valley) and practically buy a home outright. Anyone who and any concept that stands in the way of that is a problem.
OK guys, before someone says something we are all going to regret I would lke to steer the comments away from specific nationalities. This an emotional and important topic and all of us at The Record have been reading all of the comments. I am struck by how honest and thought-provoking most of the input has been. As a homeowner, I understand concerns about real estate values and as an employer I know how tough it is to help prospective employees find housing. I remember, too, what it was like to arrive in Park City post-college with nothing but dreams in my pockets. I also remember holding down four or five jobs in order to buy a used VW. I think those of us who have been around a while should take a moment to remember what it was like when we were just starting out and the breaks that helped us get by those first few seasons.
overall, I believe there are two main groups of seasonal employees. There are the students and young singles who have the flexibility to take a four-month job in a glamorous resort town before settling on a career. Their transiency works to our advantage but we must be prepared to house them and provide healthcare when needed. If they are happy and healthy, our guests will be happy too. Therefore businesses must be ready to help subsidize their needs and various government entities must enact legislation that supports those efforts. On site dorms seem lke a viable soluton that would not impact neighborhoods.
The second group includes those who want work year round, many are immigrants from places inside and outside the U.S. who are drawn by our robust economy and surfeit of jobs. They remind me of my grandparents who came to the States from Russia and Eastern Europe, who worked hard and faced bitter discrimination. Their generation is now revered as the bedrock of our country. It is in our best interest to provide for their needs too, to offer services that aid in assimilation, to ensure their families are healthy and educated. We all benefit. The answers arent simple. But I strongl believe that Park City has the resources, the intellect and the tolerace to be a pioneer in this arena. Your continued commets toward this end are deeply appreciated.
.....nan
"How about you? Have you lived there?"
Yes. Bought and sold in both LA & SF. Bought a house 2X bigger in PC same year as I sold in SF(2002). Larger lot, MUCH nicer finishes.
NOT the same per sq ft costs as Either coasts.
"It cant be more than 800 sq ft and it is going for 750,000."
Has it sold? How long has it been on the market? Actual sale price and reality are different matters.
"I think that you need to check your facts before you accuse me of falsehood!"
Average SF house price: $718700
Average PC house price: $474015
I DID do the research. You can take that foot out of your mouth any time now.
House prices,
According to the Utah MLS the lowest priced home currently for sale is 459,000. Between 459,000 and 995,000 there are 35 homes for sale. this adverage is somewhere around 600+/-. The home for sale on top of Main has been for sale for about 3 weeks. Considering that we are moving into the busy season, it will go soon. Your adverage is way too low based on current market values.
So I should trust your *scientific* numbers over the governments? OK. That little house has been listed for at least since this summer. May have been taken off the market, but I have seen a forsale sign in front of it for a loooong time. Realitors in town are now all complaining about the slow market. It ain't gonna go any time soon.
Who said housing costs in SF and NY are similar to those in PC? That's ludicrous -- what are you smoking man?
"what are you smoking man?"
See how much Park City has changed!! Years ago you wouldn't even have to ask!
Hey Editor,
Who said anything about providing healthcare? Do not attempt to hijack this discussion about seasonal houseing with a left-leaning political agenda. That is unfair. This thread has nothing to do with healthcare.
One comment on housing prices in Park City compared to San Francisco. While the median price in Park City is not as high as the median price in San Francisco, it is very near the median price for the San Franscisco Bay Area. Having lived in the greater Bay Area, I can attest to the high cost of living there. When Park City reaches that threashold, Park City can in no way be considered a cheap place to live.
The BIG difference between SF & PC(besides a lower median price) is that the ENTIRE Bay Area is expensive. If you work in the area, you gotta pay the high price. PC has much lower cost surrounding communities that are well within the realm of commuting every day to work.
I think people are trying to make too much out of this. Yes, it is expensive. No, it's not stratospheric, especially if you compare it to the coasts. You still can get by here if you live a short distance out of town. That is very different than the cycle of poverty inducing circumstances in SF, LA, NY, etc.
The last comment fails to take into account the relative wage scales in the SF Bay Area (all expensive to live), but much higher wages overall. The low cost surrounding communities do not have the corresponding high wage levels that you have in the SF Bay Area. Park City is a high cost area with low wages -- the residents that support the high housing prices are not local wage earners -- they are left and right coast refugees. They require a support economy, as do the resorts, that will not be able to survive without some housing relief.
Please don't use anecdotal evidence and hearsay to make your argument. Government statistics indicates salaries on the West Coast are ~20% higher than Utah. That difference barely makes a dent in the ~50% (again, Government Stats) higher housing costs in the SF area. It's in reality HARDER to make ends meet on the coasts than here, even in PC. And as pointed out earlier, reasonable commutes from reasonably priced housing does exist for those that are priced out of the PC market. It's not as bad as people make it out to be.
I think that the last blogger is correct. Live in a cheaper area and commute to park city. take advantage of all the things park city has to offer and drive a little bit. on the way home you can laugh about how much they pay for homes, etc while you live in a modest place and travel for most of the year. park city is turning into another aspen. pay over the top prices to live with self centered people who as this blog shows are only concerned with the price of realestate! commute and take advantage of everything that they are paying rediculous prices for.....
I work at the resort because I want to, not because I have to. I'm college educated...however, how many professional jobs are available in this town? Not many...
What government statistics? Check the 2000 census data for Park City, Summit County and the San Francisco, Oakland, San Jose CMSA, the most recent data where all regions are covered. The median household incomes are $65,800, $64,962 and $62,024 respectively. Median housing values for owner occupied units are $450,900, $296,000, $353,500 respectively. Based upon these statistics, the affordability of the SF, Oakland, San Jose CMSA falls right in between Park City and Summit County. A reasonable guess is that the Snyderville Basin skews closer to Park City than Summit County as a whole.
Hearsay, anecdotes: just the facts.
Ah, that's the beauty of statistics. You can distort them any way you want. Your outdated 2000 numbers are vastly different then my updated 2005 numbers. Using 2005 numbers you get (for SF):
http://money.cnn.com/best/bplive/snapshots/48477.html
and (for PC):
http://money.cnn.com/best/bplive/snapshots/40578.html
To summarize; MHI: $68,053 vs. $81,459 MHP: $711,157 vs. $335,233 for SF vs. PC, respectively.
Hearsay, anecdotes: just the facts.
Ah, statistics and the liar. Well, the data that you used is not the "government statistics" as noted in the original post (“Government statistics indicates salaries on the West Coast are ~20% higher than Utah. That difference barely makes a dent in the ~50% (again, Government Stats) higher housing costs in the SF area”), but a compilation done for a best places survey. Strikes me that the compilation data meets the definition of hearsay. Not only are the statistics not from the source originally quoted, they do not address the comment that I made. My comment was comparing the SF Bay Area, not San Francisco the city. There is a vast difference between the two. Unfortunately, there are more recent statistics for the SF Bay Area but not for either Park City or Summit County.
Facts, you gotta luv them.
Will you two stop. You have completely lost track of the intent of the discussion. This pissing match shows only one thing: you can find whatever stats you want to fit your argument.
PC is an expensive town to live in. It is not as expensive as other resorts towns or the West/East coast, but it is still too expensive for many for the people that live and work there. The real problem in my opinion is that the developers are in the back pocket of the city government and get high end projects rubber stamped on a wink and a nod. Look at city government. The mayor is a realitor. The planning commision is made up of developers, mortgage bankers and real estate brockers. The head building official proudly presents that 'we are on a record pace' for building this year. What's wrong with this picture? Price increases are encouraged and sought after by all the town's leadership.
What about the Summit County commissioners? Assess them.
I agree, a real-estate selling mayor in PC is laughable. But those five people who voted last year did give Dana a four-year mandate. Yeah right!
Well, we got a rancher, a lawyer and a preservationist on the County Commision. They *seem* to be a little more restrained in their decisions, but end up getting law suit after lawsuit thrown at them by greedy land owners that think they should have the right to any density they wish.
The County Commissioners – we have a good old boy rancher, a real estate broker and developer and a local activist. Their decisions on the one hand seem to favor an agenda of open space and controlled development. On the other hand, the decisions have a decided favoritism to certain developers and a system with two sets of rules. If you are a favored developer, the skids are greased and projects are quickly approved and amended. If you are not on the favored list, the process is interminable and never ending and the likelihood of ever receiving an approval is ever so remote. The Commissioners have created a system in which there are not objective criteria and where the Commissioners use their unfettered power to decide which project moves forward.
As far as developers lawsuits go – why should one person be entitled to 1/3 acre lots (or 3 homes to the acre) and the adjacent property be entitled to 40 acre lots (or 1 home to 40 acres)? What is the criteria that is used to make these decisions and are they fundamentally fair? Open space is a valuable community asset, but one that ultimately needs to be purchased. History has shown that the open space is either purchased on the open market at fair prices or, ultimately, through the assessment of damages for illegal takings or other similar claims.
How will the public feel if the County ends up on the losing end of the suits?
The above post brought to you by the Greedy Developers Association (GDA).
DO you expect anyone to give you any sympathy when you are a large land owner and you stand to make millions off of your McMansion development? Are you that greedy that you would sacrifice greater density and gain profits for your own pockets at the expense of the community that you claim to live in? All these old time land owners are taking to money and running all the way to the bank. Just remember that your increased land value is due to the County Commision's efforts to check growth in the 1st place. You folks have no morals and should be ashamed of yourselves.
"How will the public feel if the County ends up on the losing end of the suits?"
How will the developers/Laywers feel WHEN the County prevails?
No reason to believe that the County will prevail -- would be a first.
Looks like Round 1 was won by the county!
I like the argument about "illegal takings" regarding requiring land densities etc. What is never mentioned is how the existing taxpayers seem to always pay more for the increased costs associated with these new developments.
In my businesses, I don't receive such direct support from the taxpayers as does the real estate development community. Development should pay 100% of its impact on the infrastructure of a community, not hide behind legislation removing school impact fees etc. Figure it as a cost of doing business and price your product accordingly. Until then, don't come complaining to me about land takings etc. When your hand is out of my pocket, then I'll support taking the communities hands out of yours.
I would love to know why anonymous thinks that the property purchased for employee housing should be in Kamas. Why not Park City if there is where they are working and it is benefiting Park City. Living in Kamas has been a wonderful experience until the past 10 years when everyone suddenly thinks that living in Kamas and working in Park City or Salt Lake is ideal. Think again. If you need people to work at the resorts in Park City, then the developers need to find property to build low income housing in Park City NOT KAMAS!
I'm not sure which Glenwild an earlier anonymous poster was referring to as being only affordable if one has multiple jobs; the Glenwild I've seen is full of multi-millionaires who don't work for a living.
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